Frame: Carrot vs. Stick and Active Disinterest

Playing to win, instead of playing to not lose, those were some brave words.

It was braver still to act on them. It’s like the tide is going out on your ego and you’re going to see how good you are. I feel pretty naked. The tide is out. By playing to win, instead of playing to not lose, I am currently losing, or at least not winning. But what is daygame if not an exercise in delayed gratification. It would be demoralizing if I couldn’t figure out what to work on next. But I did, and you’re going to read about it.

Krauser talks about this frustration. He calls it out as “not actually doing daygame” but rather “having a nice chat with a stranger.” Yep, that’s what it feels like. Combined with some guys on Twitter telling me what my stats should be (they are likely right, but it’s hard to trust guys on twitter, especially the ones there for marketing purposes). I think this might be a reasonably accurate assessment of where I am in the process. I keep wishing I would figure these things out faster, but one of my favorite quotes from Mystery is that “patterns emerge over time.” Anyway, I have a slightly different conclusion than Krauser about how to break out of the “nice chat with a stranger phase,” and I’ll get to that later.

I’m good at approaching and I like talking to girls, ok, I’m good at having nice chats with girls. I’ve gotten many numbers and dates and even pulled a handful of girls (strongly available maybes and 1 definite yes girl). Many kisses, many near misses. I’m much more confident than I was 3-6-12-24 months ago. This was despite playing to not lose. Roy Walker described me as enthusiastic a few months ago and warned me of a phase most daygamers encounter when it becomes a grind. After the occasional setback, I often think “Ok, maybe I’m at that point now,” but it goes away after a few days and a few good sets.

My main problem right now is my frame. My frame leaks nice guy way too often. Nice guy has been leaking out of me all summer. In case you didn’t know girls in NYC really don’t like nice guys. This has been revealed by letting go of the ego game of playing to not lose and challenging myself to see what happens when I play to win (and I lost a lot more).

I’ve been building a boat to cross the river. An analogy that Nash uses often when we talk. Clearly a manly boat, I’m in shape, successful enough, tall enough, fit enough, leader of men, protector of others, check, check, check, but my frame is wrong. My boat looks pretty good but has an obvious leak and girls don’t want to get into a leaky boat.

Returning to reality from the analogy, here are some examples of what goes wrong:

In my approaches, sometimes my tease hits but then the rest of my conversation turns into an informational chat and becomes nice guy. Mr. V coined something like this “Your conversation with a girl will become as boring as you both can accidentally make it.” If the tease doesn’t hit, it’s usually a good indicator that she’s not in the mood to talk and it’s not going to go anywhere, but when the tease hits and it dies, it’s on me and my frame. I know I can’t get them all, but I can do better and I will.

Also, frequently in approaches and on dates, I give too much value, like something out of Japanese politeness culture or Mr. Rodgers neighborhood: “Oh you’re a singer, that’s cool and you must have a wonderful voice.” It works great for making friends and influencing people. It’s definitely a staple of my management style, and it makes me approachable and works great for leading teams and male and female employees. It just doesn’t work for attracting girls. This is part of the reason that many successful CEOs don’t do well in game. It’s too much carrot and not enough stick. My use of carrots is fine. I need to use more stick. It will probably make me a better leader too.

Instead I need to be more skeptical. It should be “You’re a singer? Oh God (credit Mr. V and hat tip to Mystery)! I hear autotune enables anyone to become a singer these days.” It’s subtle, but this preservation of my relative value in the interaction is probably the biggest missing ingredient of my frame. I just give it away. If I had it, I would unconsciously be more challenging and teasing. Referring to my analogy du jour, my frame just immediately leaks out of the hole in the bottom of my otherwise pretty cool boat.

If you see the girl as a glass that is half full, you’re not protecting the relative value frame and are in danger of slipping into nice guy. Accidentally, the girl is placed on a pedestal. If you see her as a glass that is half empty, the relative frame is skewed correctly, and it is more likely she will work to get you. Hypergamy is a thing. I would like to think I am actually relatively neutral on how I view each girl, part of that is I know I can just meet more, but I think I get skewed a little toward the glass half full perspective and lose my relative value frame because I am curious about them and not challenging enough. Curiosity is killing my pussy cat.

An example of losing the frame on dates: I get a girl out on a coffee date and the chat somehow slips into nice guy because I don’t go in with the correct relative value mindset, no challenge to her, just curiosity. That’s coming in at a disadvantage because of my mental frame. I have been counteracting this by trying to hit Magnum’s 5 points. I have had some success with this – a few dates where I got a girl to my apartment and lost her after kissing. The success so far has been in playing to not lose – I identified when a girl was repeatedly steering away from sexual topics and I decided to cut the date short. Helpful, but not enough. Need more challenge.

Another big thing that Mr.V pointed out to me about my dating conversation skills is getting into conversational quicksand (usually cultural quicksand where we end up talking about cultures too much) because I enjoy the topic. There are a few other topics like this that I have to avoid getting stuck on – I’m sure most guys have a few of these. The frame improvement for me is to say something about it, to show her a taste of my interests and personality and keep the seduction train moving through the station.

It is amused mastery, yet “I am the prize” that is spouted so often on Twitter just isn’t articulate enough. Neither is Lance Mason’s classic take on amused mastery: “everything she does is cute.” I am better than you needs to be subtly and constantly reiterated. Being a challenge. I’m skeptical so you need to work to impress me (which sounds like a mild form of dread game). The best she can do is that’s cute when she tries to fight and you enforce the frame until she submits and complies. Her reality is ridiculous no matter what – like most of us think of our bratty little sisters (if we have them). You reward her for submitting and complying and honoring you and your reality, but you have to maintain that relative value frame.

She needed less carrot and more stick too.

There is an escalation ladder of enforcing frame when a girl does behavior you don’t like (paraphrased from Krauser – source was his blog or one of his books, will update with the source later) followed by an explanation in carrot/stick terms:

  • 1) Ignore (no carrot, no stick)
  • 2) Joke about it (little stick)
  • 3) Call it out (bigger stick)
  • 4) Demote her/Next her (stick, no more carrots)

1 and 4 are passive strategies. They work if she’s attracted and is causing drama and notices you ignore it or step back and she will chase. That is if she is already attracted to you. I am actually pretty good at doing those naturally (withholding carrots), but they are passive and trying to attract a girl by ignoring her is generally a bad plan, and that goes double for NYC where there are so many shiny happy people holding hands.

Recalling the Mystery Method, active disinterest is where attraction is created, and that is essentially 2 and 3. You either tease her (preferable) or put her in her place or even frame crush (provide discipline her like her father should have). She’ll get a defensive tingle from that. This is the challenge aka the stick treatment.

Mystery’s classic example of active disinterest is “You’re French?” “I love French girls, I can’t even talk to you right now. *Back Turn*.”

I have not been consciously doing 2 & 3 and those are absolutely the weakest part of my game. Sometimes I would get lucky and it would work out and I think that’s how I got my dates and lays to this point. Getting lucky. That’s not really game. I should use more active disinterest to generate attraction, in approaches, on dates, all the time. Coupled with more tweaks to improve my overall relative value frame and remove conversational quicksand I expect to see more results. Good thing Mr. V is exceptionally good at teasing. You become an average of the 5 people you hang out with and I am getting better at teasing by hanging out with him.

In the last 6 months, I have definitely been escalating better. It puts a smile of validation on my face when a girl gives me the vibe of “Ooooh, how did we end up kissing like this, he knows how to escalate and I liiike it…” which gets verbalized as “…you move fast (said with a smile between kisses)…” When women describe being swept off their feet, this is what I imagine is happening.

Referring back again to Krauser’s post, he recommends a guy break out of the “friendly chat with strangers phase” by becoming more sexual in set. I agree, it helped when I actively did that a year ago. I regularly do spikes, stepping in, the little toe kick, laser eye contact, etc. But that is not my issue. This is part of the reason I am ending up in the situation with the girl where she is like “how did we end up kissing like this so quickly?” it was a friendly chat that turned sexual as I escalated and she complied and went along with it. She is a little surprised and often smiles as she gets swept off her feet. Hoever (I’m going to leave that typo there), even when it goes well, it is too much pull. Friendly chat + escalation is pull. That’s only half of the push-pull needed for seduction. She should start to feel like chasing me at that point. What is missing is the push, the active disinterest and making her work for it. If she is working for it, then she is not surprised by the escalation, and is a more active participant in the escalation and it proceeds much smoother.

Perhaps Krauser has a more naturally strong frame and so it doesn’t necessarily occur to him as a frequent issue. Or maybe I’ve just been developing in some unusual organic way. I’ve absorbed most of his teachings and gotten some results, but my diagnosis is that my frame (specifically holding my relative value frame and maintaining it by active disinterest) is my sticking point.

I’ve been losing some the past few weeks. It’s OK. One of the good things about solo sports, like… say… running… is that you are competing against yourself and you can train with and against others to motivate yourself to improve. Daygame is also a solo sport, and having a good friend in Nash, and a good wing in Mr. V (and Magnum and LongBurnDaFire) helps me sort through things quicker and bounce back from the daygame lowpoints when we are struggling with our sticking points.

Finally, this Twitter and Blog thing has been helpful for meeting new people. I spotted a guy on the street about a month ago who approached a girl I was about to approach. He did well and got her number. Then about 2 weeks ago, he approached Mr. V after Mr. V approached a girl he was about to go after. He was like “I read some Krauser, and I follow some guys on Twitter, Nash and Runner… …that put a smile on my face.” We’ve been out a few times since then, he has a really good vibe: enthusiastic and reminds me of myself a year ago. I don’t want to out him, but I know he’s reading. Those kind of encounters are the reward of having this blog.

3 Replies to “Frame: Carrot vs. Stick and Active Disinterest”

  1. I followed up with the link to Krauser’s article. He ends it with:

    >The result is more blowouts and more lays. And if I was to post a day’s filming on YouTube the comments would all be “dude, why can’t you get more numbers?”

    As you called out, in NYC approaching with strength and intent doubles in importance (along with the blowouts). I’m finding a pattern where girls who aren’t interested are pretty good at avoiding getting into any sort of conversation beyond the compliment/tease. This may be a self-selected filter; the girl is doing us a favor by saving us all time. I’m tracking my approach:date numbers more so than my approach:number stats to confirm this suspicion.

    I’m curious if you find a consistency between your daygame set to your date. When you have a stronger set with more teasing, does that seep in to your date? Is it more natural to fall into a sexual vibe on the date, when it comes off an approach with higher levels of intent shown?

    I like this thread, too:
    >This is part of the reason that many successful CEOs don’t do well in game.
    That’s something I’ve been thinking about for a while. CEO’s are clearly “alpha”, so why is it that so few of them play the Game? Unless they’re so good, we don’t even know they’re playing.

  2. Hi Runner,

    Sorry for reaching out to you here but my message wasn’t going through on the contact page. My name is Milin and I’m a daygamer from Boston. I’ve been following you and Mr. V for a while and was wondering if you guys would like to meet. I’m visiting New York for a couple of networking events on Oct 8 and 9 and I plan to do some daygame while I’m there. Let me know if you guys would be interested in joining. You can see my daygame journey here http://milin.home.blog

    Warmly,
    Milin

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